{"id":3127,"date":"2018-06-06T05:02:02","date_gmt":"2018-06-06T03:02:02","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/?p=3127"},"modified":"2019-10-22T12:28:17","modified_gmt":"2019-10-22T10:28:17","slug":"dialogue","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/2018\/06\/06\/dialogue\/","title":{"rendered":"Will do Mr. Prime Minister \u2013 An imagined dialogue between the Prime Minister and the Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the Palestinian Authority\u2019s ICC referral"},"content":{"rendered":"<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><div id=\"google_language_translator\" class=\"default-language-en\"><\/div><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">On 22 May 2018, the Palestinian Authority (PA) filed a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/itemsDocuments\/2018-05-22_ref-palestine.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">referral<\/a> to the International Criminal Court\u2019s (ICC) Office of the Prosecutor (OTP), requesting it \u201cto investigate, in accordance with the temporal jurisdiction of the Court, past, ongoing and future crimes within the court\u2019s jurisdiction, committed in all parts of the territory of the State of Palestine.\u201d<\/p>\n<figure id=\"attachment_3131\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-3131\" style=\"width: 409px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/BensoudaMalki.jpg?ssl=1\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-3131\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/BensoudaMalki.jpg?resize=409%2C222&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" width=\"409\" height=\"222\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/BensoudaMalki.jpg?resize=300%2C163&amp;ssl=1 300w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/BensoudaMalki.jpg?resize=768%2C418&amp;ssl=1 768w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/BensoudaMalki.jpg?w=960&amp;ssl=1 960w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 409px) 85vw, 409px\" \/><\/a><figcaption id=\"caption-attachment-3131\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">ICC Prosecutor, Mrs Fatou Bensouda and her team meet the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Expatriates of Palestine, H.E. Dr Riad Malki and delegation at the Court\u2019s Headquarters<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">After learning of the referral and after seeing what was being reported by the major news outlets, Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu (PM) may have contacted <em>Legal<\/em> (referred to as \u201cL.\u201d) from the legal office of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, asking to be briefed on the legal ramifications of the referral. Their meeting might have gone something like this:<!--more--><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Good morning, Mr. Prime Minister.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Who said it\u2019s a good morning? Have you not been watching the news?! We\u2019re being demonized as usual. What are we supposed to do when Hamas is firing rockets at Israel? What are we supposed to do when they whip-up and agitate civilians to storm the Gaza border, while Hamas hide among them, so they can get close enough to kill our soldiers. Why isn\u2019t the international media reporting on how these \u201cprotesters\u201d are wittingly or unwittingly assisting these terrorists \u2013 acting as human shields? We\u2019re being provoked. If we do nothing, we\u2019ll find ourselves in urban combat not just in Gaza, the West Bank, and other Palestinian held territories, but here in our own streets. If we react, it is inevitable that unarmed protesters will get hurt or killed. And now there is news of this <a href=\"https:\/\/edition.cnn.com\/2018\/06\/03\/middleeast\/razan-al-najjar-gaza-nurse-killed\/index.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">nurse being killed<\/a> by our forces. Everyone is weeping for her, while our claims that our soldiers were acting within the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2018\/jun\/01\/palestinian-woman-shot-during-protest-dead-near-gaza-fence\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">rules of engagement<\/a> are ignored.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 How can I help?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 What\u2019s this nonsense about the ICC Prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, opening up an investigation? What is Mahmoud Abbas up to? How serious is it this time? How can the ICC have jurisdiction over Israel, when we are not a State Party to the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/nr\/rdonlyres\/ea9aeff7-5752-4f84-be94-0a655eb30e16\/0\/rome_statute_english.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rome Statute<\/a>?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Mr. Prime Minister, we have been down this road before. If you recall, not too long ago there was talk of the ICC Prosecutor investigating alleged crimes against humanity in Gaza. There was an effort to tie in the situation in Gaza with the Mavi Marmara incident. It went nowhere. In fact, after a preliminary examination, the Prosecutor <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/iccdocs\/otp\/OTP-COM-Article_53(1)-Report-06Nov2014Eng.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">decided against<\/a> initiating an investigation because the \u201cgravity\u201d requirement was not met, but the Pre-Trial Chamber <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/pages\/record.aspx?uri=2015869\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">disagreed<\/a> with her assessment and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/pages\/record.aspx?uri=2015869\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">ordered<\/a> to reconsider her decision.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Get to the point! And don\u2019t assume I know all this technical jargon you are talking about. Better yet, assume I know nothing and we are talking about the ICC for the first time \u2013 and walk me through it, step by step.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I can dig up one of our earlier memos or, if you would like something comprehensive, I can prepare an updated memo within a day or so.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 That would be good. But right now, I need you to give me the big picture. This is more than just a legal issue. And if you haven\u2019t noticed, we seem to have been caught flatfooted on this one.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Well, it was only a matter of time until the PA was going to succeed in getting the ICC to launch an investigation \u2013 and maybe even hand-down some charges. Behind the PA you have all sorts of NGOs, human rights monitors and activists, etc. gathering evidence, writing reports, issuing press releases, pressuring the UN, and so on. I\u2019m afraid, Mr. Prime Minister, Abbas has successfully internationalized the situation in Gaza. The ICC Prosecutor will come under a lot of pressure to act \u2013 swiftly and decisively.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Why? Explain.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Well, she cannot ignore the PA referral \u2013 not while the world is witnessing our soldiers <a href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/news\/worldviews\/wp\/2018\/06\/02\/a-palestinian-medic-was-shot-dead-in-gaza-now-israel-says-it-will-launch-a-probe\/?utm_term=.eb6dfbb4ceec\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">shooting<\/a> people that look like unarmed or seemingly unarmed civilians on TV screens worldwide. And it doesn\u2019t help when some of our soldiers are <a href=\"https:\/\/www.independent.co.uk\/news\/world\/middle-east\/israel-soldiers-shoot-palestinian-unarmed-video-cheering-rubber-bullets-madama-nablus-a8321576.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">callously bragging<\/a> about sniping at civilians as if they are shooting fish in a barrel, and there is no serious reaction that is openly seen or heard from the commanding officers, or the Defense Minister, or, with all due respect, the Prime Minister. It is only natural that in the court of public opinion, Israel is perceived as the aggressor, and our soldiers are perceived to be targeting innocent civilians.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I didn\u2019t call you here to give me a lecture on public relations! I just want to know what the ICC process is and what we can expect from them in the short-term.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 If you are thinking tactically, I\u2019m afraid that our options are not so great \u2013 not unless we decide to play ball.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I\u2019m not following you.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 What I\u2019m saying is that we need to think long-term \u2013 strategically. This will require looking at this referral within the context of the wider Israeli-Palestinian conflict and attendant issues. It would be a mistake to look at the ICC strictly as a judicial institution \u2013 or the ICC Prosecutor as just someone who will simply investigate and call it as she sees it. She has considerable discretion. She is politically savvy and not above politics.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 So, what are you telling me?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 In a nutshell, we need to be engaged in every step of the process. Otherwise, we risk having the PA control the agenda and the narrative.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Let\u2019s not get ahead of ourselves. Walk me through the ICC labyrinth \u2013 step by step.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 There is a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/Pages\/item.aspx?name=171204-rep-otp-PE\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">two-step process<\/a> that leads to an individual being charged at the ICC. The first step is a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/Pages\/item.aspx?name=171204-rep-otp-PE\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">preliminary examination<\/a>, which may be initiated by a referral from a State Party to the Rome Statute (such as the PA\u2019s referral in our case), or by the UN Security Council. (such as <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/libya\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">the situation in Libya<\/a>). An investigation may even be initiated by the OTP on its own initiative based on the information received from third parties, like communications from NGOs and individual human rights activists (such as the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/interactive\/2017\/04\/24\/world\/asia\/duterte-icc-complaint.html?_r=0\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">communication<\/a> concerning President Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines). The OTP is obliged to examine all the information it receives and determine: first, whether a national court is already dealing with the situation and whether the national proceedings are genuine and compliant with international norms (the so-called \u201ccomplementarity\u201d requirement), and second, whether the evidence gathered by the OTP and presented to the Court shows that there were crimes committed that are sufficiently \u201cgrave\u201d to be prosecuted at the ICC (the \u201cgravity\u201d requirement). The OTP must also consider whether opening a full-scale investigation would serve the interests of justice and of the victims. Put differently, regardless of jurisdiction and admissibility, the OTP will assess if there is a compelling reason not to take on a situation or proceed with a full investigation in the interests of justice. For example, if such an investigation would only escalate the hostilities or derail ongoing peace negotiations, the Prosecutor may decline to proceed after a preliminary examination in the interests of justice. There is no deadline for bringing a preliminary examination to a close. The OTP continues to collect information on crimes and monitors relevant national proceedings until it has sufficient information to make a determination. If all the requirements are met, the OTP may proceed to an actual investigation \u2013 gathering evidence, identifying the suspect or suspects, drafting the charging documents (indictments), etc. \u2013 and request the Pre-Trial Chamber (PTC) to confirm the charges against suspects implicated in crimes within the ICC\u2019s jurisdiction, issue arrest warrants, and summons to appear. The PTC may or may not confirm the charges. In the case it does not confirm the charges against a suspect, the OTP may still further investigate, present new evidence, and seek the PTC to confirm the charges once again. If the PTC grants the OTP\u2019s requests, it may confirm the charges and send the case forward to trial if the new evidence establishes that there are substantial grounds to believe that the suspect or suspects committed the crimes in the charging documents.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Thanks. This is very useful. Now, let\u2019s go back and discuss our immediate options.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 At this stage, the OTP will be gathering relevant information and evidence. It will probably start by looking at what has been provided to them by the PA. It will also look at reports prepared by the likes of Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, NGOs working in Gaza and other Palestinian held territories, and of course, UN reports. This may be enough for the Prosecutor to decide on her next step \u2013 even if little or no reliable evidence was gathered by OTP investigators.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 What kind of an investigation is this? How can Bensouda seriously claim to know what has been going on by reading second and third-hand reports, especially reports by organizations that are either anti-Israel or prone to consider only what is fed to them by the PA and their proxies?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L: \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 It has been done before. There is nothing novel or prejudicial about this approach. Libya is a good example. <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/itemsDocuments\/180509-otp-rep-UNSC-lib-ENG.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Gaddafi and Al-Senussi<\/a>, and most recently <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/itemsDocuments\/180509-otp-rep-UNSC-lib-ENG.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Al-Werfalli<\/a>, were charged based on what was handed to the OTP on a silver platter by the UN and NGOs. The latest example is the OTP\u2019s <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/CourtRecords\/CR2018_02057.PDF\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">request<\/a> to the PTC for a ruling on whether the ICC has jurisdiction to prosecute anyone in the Myanmar military or government, or civilians used by the Myanmar military involved in the alleged deportation of the Rohingya people from Myanmar to Bangladesh. The issue is different, but if you look at the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/CourtRecords\/CR2018_02057.PDF\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">request<\/a>, you will see that the OTP is relying exclusively on what has been reported by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and others, including an author who has written <a href=\"https:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/2017\/02\/22\/book-review-the-rohingyas\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">a book written on the Rohingya<\/a>. The OTP will probably take the same approach with <a href=\"https:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/2018\/02\/12\/scrutinizing-duterte\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Duterte<\/a> of the Philippines \u2013 since he is unlikely to grant ICC investigators access to investigate in the Philippines \u2013 even though the Philippines is a State Party to the Rome Statute and has a legal obligation to fully cooperate with the ICC.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0If that is the case, it is a forgone conclusion what the ICC will do.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Perhaps, but not necessarily. Keep in mind that the initial threshold is rather low. But even if Bensouda decides to proceed with a full investigation, this does not mean that charges will automatically flow.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0But if it is virtually a forgone conclusion, why should we bother getting involved? How do we benefit in the long run?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Good question. That should be our aim \u2013 to think long-term. Strategically. But to do so, in my opinion, we need to also approach this tactically. In other words, we should position ourselves now for our long-term goal \u2013 to get the ICC to do nothing.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I\u2019m listening.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I know what I\u2019m about to suggest will be counter-intuitive for you and others in our government and most likely the top brass at the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), but I think it is the best way to go.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Go on.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0We need to be engaged with the ICC. I would even go as far as to say we should embrace the opportunity. I am not suggesting that we let the OTP investigators run roughshod over us or give them carte blanche. We should allow the OTP to do its investigation so long as we can reach an arrangement of sorts. We do not want to interfere with the investigation, but we also should not sit back and assume that it will be fair, objective, and comprehensive \u2013 and by that I mean investigating everything on all sides.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Why not just stonewall them? Why lend any legitimacy to their investigation?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Mr. Prime Minister, you began by asking me if I am aware of what is being reported in the press around the world. We do not do ourselves any favors \u2013 optics-wise \u2013 if we prevent the ICC investigators from investigating in Israel. Al-Bashir of Sudan can afford to take this approach. But not us; we have no African Union of sorts to support us. Israel is a beacon of liberal democracy in the region. And more importantly, if we want to be treated fairly, we also need to be engaged in the process.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Since when Israel has been treated fairly? You saw the two UN reports on the Mavi Marmara incident. The <a href=\"http:\/\/www2.ohchr.org\/english\/bodies\/hrcouncil\/docs\/15session\/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Fact-Finding mission<\/a> deliberately bundled Gaza into the mix. Was that not done to overcome that gravity requirement?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0But\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I wasn\u2019t finished. Do you recall how the <a href=\"https:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/2016\/12\/19\/icc-otps-report-mavi-marmara\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">two UN reports<\/a> dealt with the blockade issue? The <a href=\"https:\/\/graphics8.nytimes.com\/packages\/pdf\/world\/Palmer-Committee-Final-report.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Panel of Inquiry<\/a> said it was perfectly within our rights to impose a blockade considering all the weapons that were being smuggled into Gaza. So, how is it that the <a href=\"http:\/\/www2.ohchr.org\/english\/bodies\/hrcouncil\/docs\/15session\/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Fact-Finding mission<\/a> used the opportunity to say the blockade was illegal and as a result, insinuate that we were deliberately trying to starve Palestinians in Gaza?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0You have a legitimate point, but please, hear me\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0And while I\u2019m at it, have you forgotten the <a href=\"http:\/\/ap.ohchr.org\/documents\/dpage_e.aspx?si=A\/HRC\/12\/48\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Goldstone Report<\/a> from 2009? Goldstone concluded, along with his coterie of so-called \u201cimpartial experts,\u201d that the IDF were guilty of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. Thankfully, he <a href=\"http:\/\/articles.latimes.com\/2011\/apr\/05\/opinion\/la-ed-goldstone-20110404\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">came around<\/a> \u2013 but only after we pressed him to look at all relevant evidence. Oh, and then there was the high-flying superstar of supposed international legal experts, Professor William Schabas. Talk about Israel, or me for that matter, getting a fair shake. Give me a break! Schabas was going around saying all sorts of prejudicial things before he accepted to be the chairman of an international commission of inquiry to investigate alleged violations of international humanitarian laws during the 2014 Gaza conflict \u2013 claiming that I was <a href=\"http:\/\/www.israelnationalnews.com\/News\/News.aspx\/184119\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">the greatest threat for the survival of Israel<\/a> and that he would like to prosecute me. So, forgive me if I am allergic to these international types that presume to know what is going on here and have reached their conclusions without knowing all the facts.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Mr. Prime Minister, if I may. There are several points I would like to make.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0L., make it quick. Just thinking about these so-called independent commissions that carry the imprimatur of the UN \u2013 as if it is a bastion of objectivity and good will \u2013 gets my blood boiling.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0My first point concerns the contours of the referral. The ICC cannot just look at one side of the events; it must look at the events holistically. It is not just a matter of what is going on from this end. It is a matter of context. So, we need to insist that any investigation must be comprehensive; it needs to look into what Hamas, Hezbollah, and other militant and extremist groups are up to.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0That\u2019s for sure. We should also insist that they investigate the not-so-invisible hand of Iran behind these groups and others.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0So, we will need assurances that the OTP will investigate with equal vigor what is happening to us. Here is where we can provide the OTP the information we have and the information we have relied on as the basis for our actions. Context, Mr. Prime Minster. We need to insist on contextualization of the conflict in Gaza and other events.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Do you realistically think this will make a difference? What, you expect the ICC to charge Hamas terrorists?! Get real! I can just see Abbas bending over backwards to hand over Islamic terrorists to the ICC.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0That is beside the point, with all due respect, Mr. Prime Minister. Our position has always been that we respond to attacks only in self-defense. And that when we do take action it is because we have to, that it is within our rights to do so, and that we are careful to be proportionate and measured. We cannot be expected to suffer innocent deaths and mutilations from rockets being fired from Gaza, suicide bombers, or these latest attacks where terrorists are mingling in and hiding among lawful protesters. The issue of proportionality will be of concern. We need to show them that, all things considered, whatever steps we take are proportional.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Correct me if I\u2019m wrong, this referral by the PA, is it not about the entire Gaza situation? Is the PA not effectively claiming that what is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza is a long-existing, sustained, and systematic array of crimes against humanity? Is this not a ploy to get us to reduce Israel to the \u201867 borders, to dismantle the settlements, and so on?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Yes. You\u2019re correct, but this is also a double-edged sword.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Explain.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0There have been peace initiatives that took all of this into account. The PA has walked away, using the US\u2019s embassy move from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as a pretext to stir-up trouble. Then the PA, through its proxies, incites these demonstrations, provoking the IDF to overreact \u2013 or at least make it appear so. In any event, Mr. Prime Minister, the ICC is not going to delink the situation in Gaza from the ongoing events. The PA pulled a fast one on the ICC with the referral; it is part and parcel of the PA\u2019s strategy to use the ICC as a means of internationalizing their efforts to establish their State based on the \u201867 boarders.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I am there and back L., but tell me something I don\u2019t know.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0I do not think this point is lost on Bensouda. She is political but she is also pragmatic. She knows that no matter how she comes down, at the end, she is unlikely to get Israelis in the dock. Why spend all that money and human resources when the results are virtually unattainable? She knows this.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0What about all the pressure she is coming under \u2013 especially from the States Parties to the Rome Statute that have it in for us?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Just because Bensouda opens a preliminary examination does not mean she will be in a rush to make any findings or proceed with a full investigation. If anything, she may use the preliminary examination as a carrot and stick \u2013 to leave it open so as to not interfere with any ongoing negotiations.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0You mean like \u201cin the interests of justice\u201d?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Sort of. She is not going to say it and certainly will not invoke it, but it will have the same effect. Look what she did in Colombia. The OTP opened a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/colombia\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">preliminary examination<\/a> in June 2004 and it is still ongoing. She obviously did this so as to avoid derailing the peace process between the Colombian government and <a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Revolutionary_Armed_Forces_of_Colombia\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">FARC<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0What if you are wrong? What if she presses ahead and not only completes her investigation but also hands out arrests warrants? What then?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0We are talking about some time down the road. She already has indicated that <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/Pages\/item.aspx?name=180522-otp-stat\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">she will not rush<\/a> her preliminary examination. But in any event, the UN Security Council could ask the OTP to defer for a year. The Rome Statute provides for this type of an intervention, if I recall, in Article 16. Even though it has not been formally invoked at the ICC yet, the African Union once referred to it in <a href=\"http:\/\/www.bbc.com\/news\/world-africa-24506006\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">supporting Kenya\u2019s request for a deferral<\/a> of the ICC investigations and prosecutions in Kenya. The UN Security Council specifically referred to Article 16 in <a href=\"https:\/\/www.un.org\/sc\/suborg\/en\/s\/res\/1970-%282011%29\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Resolution 1970<\/a> (which referred the situation in Libya to the ICC) implying that the referral to the ICC could be prevented in certain circumstances, perhaps in the event of a peaceful transfer of power. The US will not let us down. And of course, depending on where we are in the peace process, as you mentioned, the OTP could invoke its in the interests of justice discretionary authority.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0What does \u201cin the interests of justice\u201d actually mean? It seems rather malleable. Who\u2019s interests are we talking about? Is this term defined?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0You\u2019re right, the term is malleable and elusive. It is not defined in the Rome Statute. The OTP has issued <a href=\"https:\/\/www.icc-cpi.int\/about\/otp\/Pages\/otp-policies.aspx\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">two policy papers<\/a> trying to explain what this means. Basically, it explained that only under highly exceptional circumstances will it rely on\u00a0the interests of justice to delay investigations. To me it\u2019s quite obvious that by introducing this term the drafters of the Rome Statute intended to give the OTP a way to defer taking any action if, under the circumstances, the greater good would be best served by not acting \u2013 even in situations where all other requirements are met and the OTP is obliged to investigate and prosecute.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0So, what are you proposing we do next?<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Set up a committee of our own experts to help come up with a comprehensive strategy.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>PM:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0As if we don\u2019t have enough committees! OK, draft me a memo on this and list names of who you think should be on this committee and who you think should chair it.<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>L:\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0Will do, Mr. Prime Minister.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/05\/comments2.png?ssl=1\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-919\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/05\/comments2.png?resize=274%2C184&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"\" width=\"274\" height=\"184\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>On 22 May 2018, the Palestinian Authority (PA) filed a referral to the International Criminal Court\u2019s (ICC) Office of the Prosecutor (OTP), requesting it \u201cto investigate, in accordance with the temporal jurisdiction of the Court, past, ongoing and future crimes within the court\u2019s jurisdiction, committed in all parts of the territory of the State of &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/2018\/06\/06\/dialogue\/\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;Will do Mr. Prime Minister \u2013 An imagined dialogue between the Prime Minister and the Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the Palestinian Authority\u2019s ICC referral&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false},"categories":[18,21],"tags":[4,7],"class_list":["post-3127","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-icc","category-international-criminal-law","tag-icc","tag-international-criminal-law"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Will do Mr. Prime Minister \u2013 An imagined dialogue between the Prime Minister and the Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the Palestinian Authority\u2019s ICC referral - michaelgkarnavas.net\/Blog<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/2018\/06\/06\/dialogue\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Will do Mr. Prime Minister \u2013 An imagined dialogue between the Prime Minister and the Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the Palestinian Authority\u2019s ICC referral - michaelgkarnavas.net\/Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"On 22 May 2018, the Palestinian Authority (PA) filed a referral to the International Criminal Court\u2019s (ICC) Office of the Prosecutor (OTP), requesting it \u201cto investigate, in accordance with the temporal jurisdiction of the Court, past, ongoing and future crimes within the court\u2019s jurisdiction, committed in all parts of the territory of the State of &hellip; Continue reading &quot;Will do Mr. Prime Minister \u2013 An imagined dialogue between the Prime Minister and the Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the Palestinian Authority\u2019s ICC referral&quot;\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/2018\/06\/06\/dialogue\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"michaelgkarnavas.net\/Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2018-06-06T03:02:02+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2019-10-22T10:28:17+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/michaelgkarnavas.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/06\/BensoudaMalki-300x163.jpg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Michael G. 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